Where the bee sucks, there suck I;
In a cowslip’s bell I lie.
The Tempest. Act v. Sc. 1
Jays tao
says:
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...In episode 15 when Locke is being offered the gun by Jack and Locke has a sharpened stick in his hand. As Locke 'jacks' into his 'how to use a gun data base', Jacks body is used in this instants as 'the cut', and we see Locke in an instant go from sharpened stick cave man to gun wielding policemen. The distinction of technologies and the contrast is striking and I think it is a real turning point in the story where the Castaways are finally taking control of their destiny's...
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Jay, I don't want to hijack your thread. The idea of juxtaposition is very interesting. But, I've got to comment on the quote I pulled from your last post.
When Jack passed out the guns I said, well, all HELL done broke loose. I said there would be know way he'd ever get them back. In other words, "you can't put the Genie back in the bottle."
kraniumz says:
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...In episode 9:Solitary, Hurley and Jack were dicussing something about how they could improve their life on the island. Jack told to him that its about surviving and that things could have been worst. Hurley replied "How?" and the scene cut to Sayid lying on the bed about to be tortured...
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I'm really enjoying this topic! This is a great catch Kraniumz.
As
Jays tao
speculates, are these coincidences? The ones that have been mentioned seem to transparent to be just choices by the Director.
Hodgepodge
Fascinating thread. I'll be watching tomorrow's episode in a different light looking for more juxtapositions. Perhaps the fence in Charlie's backstory is in a moth motif rather than a butterfly.
Celtic Ceilidh
Anything with flapping wings, I file in the butterfly motif box if it makes sense contextually because not all symbolic imagery is literal.
Enough thread-jacking, back to juxtapostion... carry on.
sawyerhasbestlines
That's wonderful analysis,
Jays tao
. I've been thinking of Ethan as Charlie's doppleganger, or his Shadow self, too. I just wanted to add that during the plane crash we see Charlie looking into the bathroom mirror and he sees this junkie looking back at him. Ethan is like Charlie's dark reflection (that junkie in the mirror), psychologically speaking. It's interesting that Ethan didn't show up until after Charlie had given up the heroin and gone through a few days of withdrawal Ð it's like Ethan is the addict(ion) fighting for survival.
At first I was thinking that Charlie killing Ethan was strange and out-of-character. And the way he said ÒEthan is the bad guy,Ó or Òhe deserved to die,Ó seemed off to me. But, when I re-watched the pilot and saw that scene with the mirror it dawned on me that the struggle with Ethan was about integrating, or taking control of, that dark side. I guess we'll start to see Charlie as a stronger, more mature character now that he's killed his demon.
I do think Ethan was a real character (rather than a manifestation of Charlie's subconscious), but he was functioning on more than one level. I'm still not sure what to think about the abduction or Charlie's hanging, though. I guess I think there were more people involved than just Ethan.
spooky
To follow up on what SHTBL said, yes, chaotic algorhythms are used in all CGI programs. The most famous original programs work according to turtle graphics (explained in Michael Barnsley's standard work on Fractals and Graphic Design). These are an implementation of L-systems, a string rewriting system developed by biologist Aristid Lindemeyer for describing the chaotic growth of plants, which evolve recursively, yet not according to linear transformations.
I'd urge those of you interested in the topic of Chaos/Fractal geometry and Lost to look for three things; according to my research, if you find these three things, you can say that you have found a "chaotic" system: 1) a sensitivity to initial conditions, 2) a resistance to decompostion or reversal, and 3) some regularity. The truly chaotic function pursues a trajectory that Òoscillates irregularly without settling downÓ around and about a Òstrange attractor,Ó the set of points towards which the chaotic trajectory converges.
drabauer
JT -- wonderful analysis, and I don't doubt for a moment that the edits are purposeful (who suggested they weren't?? How silly -- this is an editor's job!). My mind is full of fluff and stuff at the moment, but I believe this thread will be hopping after tomorrow, now that we are all on the look out.
trinabobina
from spooky:
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Ethan as Charlie's doppleganger, or his Shadow self,
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That's really interesting, I think you all are on to something here. The only part where I might go in the opposite direction, is if Ethan does function as Charlie's shadow - would killing him be a kind of killing of self? or castration? Can he integrate his shadow, if he symbolically kills it off?
There does seem to be some kind of connection to Charlie's addiction and Ethan. Everyone on the show seems to have a backstory. Suppose Ethan was Charlie's drug dealer, directly or indirectly. Also, Charlie has always seemed like he substituted Claire for the heroine.
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Trinabolina! Hello, you've been gone, glad to see you are back!
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Drabauer, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to quote what you wrote here regarding chaos theory, and also put it over in that thread.
sawyerhasbestlines
Spooky wrote this.
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It's interesting that Ethan didn't show up until after Charlie had given up the heroin and gone through a few days of withdrawal Ð it's like Ethan is the addict(ion) fighting for survival.
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Just a side note. G*d, I remember years ago I watched a Monkey Magic episode (another great philosophy based TV series) where the pilgrims are attacked by three demons and only monkey can see them for what they actually are. Its then realized that one of the demons spurred from the idiot priest Tribitaka's denial. And that's the point. In Buddhist teachings demons of the world spur from ones denial of desire. Could we see a form of Charlie's denial of his drug addiction coming through with Ethan? And in that maybe even his Catholic faith as another form of addiction/denial? H@ly Sh*t! What other demons might appear from this idea of denial?... I think I've just jacked my own thread.
Jays tao
sawyerhasbestlines
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Also, Charlie has always seemed like he substituted Claire for the heroine.
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SHBL, I never looked at it that way, but that is definitely a true statement. I think any relationship built on addiction and dependency isn't healthy. I don't know if this bodes well for the cute couple.
Hodgepodge
shbl wrote:
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Can he integrate his shadow, if he symbolically kills it off?
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You may very well be right about that. Maybe that's why we see Ethan still breathing Ð like on a psychological level you can't just bury the shadow side without it coming back in some way. Although, Charlie does seem to want to finally take responsibility for his actions: ÒI killed Ethan, I can bury him.Ó
spooky
SHTBL, I just wanted to point up the ironic Freudian slip you mad above:
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Also, Charlie has always seemed like he substituted Claire for the heroine.
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heroine of her abductions saga->heroin addiction
If I ever get the time I am going to finish my theory of doubling in LOST; I think every character has a literary (not literal) double, a "shadow" meant to suggest either their dark/light side or the "road not taken."
And thanks for quoting me in the Chaos thread--I actually use chaos theory to analyze music, so I do think it's applicable to a lot of situations, at least in a metaphoric sense.
drabauer
quote - "heroine of her abductions saga->heroin addiction"
to the freudian slip,
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every character has a literary (not literal) double, a "shadow" meant to suggest either their dark/light side or the "road not taken."
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That will be interesting, looking forward to it.
sawyerhasbestlines
Just something I noticed from tonights episode.
When Lock is telling his mother where the footballs are, he says "Regulation in aisle 8 and nerf in aisle 15", and right as he finished saying that, it cut to the trap coming down on the mouse on the boardgame. Don't exactly know what that would mean, but it is definitely interesting.
t0xicity3k
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When Lock is telling his mother where the footballs are, he says "Regulation in aisle 8 and nerf in aisle 15", and right as he finished saying that, it cut to the trap coming down on the mouse on the boardgame. Don't exactly know what that would mean, but it is definitely interesting
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The devil is in the details!!!
drabauer
wow, that is why i love this forum. so many eyes and ears to fill us in on what we miss. and i missed that! thanks, for the heads up on. my daughters and i watch together each week so we don't miss any clues. hmmm, slipped right past us
hppydppy1
OK Big Juxtapositions in Deux ex Machina.
There were 3 big themes running through the episode:
1. Sacrifice;
2. the line: "This stuff isn't meant to be -- even though it may feel like it."
3. the statement by Locke's father, "then that makes me God."
Sacrifice Juxtaposition: After Locke experiences his visions/hallucinations of himself in a wheelchair; and Boone bloody/not bloody Locke takes Boone on a mission to find the downed plane - The scene begins with Locke not warning Boone when he's climbing up to the plane. He doesn't tell Boone the part of the vision where he sees Boone bloody. He tells Boone that he has to climb up to the plane and see what's in it.
(Locke by omitting the bloody vision is sacrificing Boone and his safety. Which also takes away Boone's choice, and thus is manipulating Boone to go into the plane.)
The next scene is Locke in the hospital before the kidney transplant surgery, telling his father: "this was meant to be." And his father replies: "see you on the other side." At this point, we don't know that Locke was manipulated from the beginning - a grand design.
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Now going backwards, the african american (private investigator) warns Locke
in the scene where he's giving Locke info on his birth parents. He cautiously
says to Locke: "This stuff isn't meant to be even though it may feel like
it." in reference to Locke's father.
Later, Locke meets his father, and his father says, "then that makes me God" when
Locke says his mother says Locke was "immaculately conceived.
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Locke wakes up in the hospital. After speaking with his mother and nurse, Locke realizes he was manipulated by his father for his kidney. Locke was conned by his parents, abandoned twice now by them. Now go to the scene where Locke is beating his fist on the rear view mirror in his volkswagon bug.
The next scene to juxtapose this, is Locke peering through the gate of his father's home. The guard won't let him in. Locke is bleeding through his shirt and he speaks into the camera wanting to know why he won't let him in.
Then it jumps to Locke kneeling on the hatch, wanting to know why he can't get into the hatch.
There is a sacrifice theme throughout. Locke gave his kidney to his father, he gave the island, Boone. ------
At the end, Locke delivers Boone to Jack. Lies about how he got hurt, and disappears, exactly like how Locke's father leaves Locke in the hospital bed after the surgery.
sawyerhasbestlines
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When the numbers are being discussed as to their nature in Hurleys flash back we cut to Clair saying to Locke, "its a trap for capturing animals". Suggesting that this could be the answer though really its a transition between the two scenes (a common trick with dialog).
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I didn't catch that! Really like it, though!
Kimber and Bunny