Full fathom five thy father lies;
Of his bones are coral made;
Those are pearls that were his eyes:
Nothing of him that doth fade
But doth suffer a sea-change
Into something rich and strange.
The Tempest. Act i. Sc. 2
None of these are my ideas but classic theories from the archives worth re-visiting in lieu of the hiatus.
I'm getting more fascinated with the already archived clone/cyborg theory
and I thought it would be fun to re-visit and make connections to support
the old clone idea now that we are watching the re-runs. Certain things
are popping out and seemingly more relevant now. Other theories function
to support the clone theory so I have included them too.
Anyway, what I'm hoping for is other CLONERS out there to jump in, join
me on a train of thought, and let's re-evalutate and combine the themes
that support the clone idea. Cloners only please, as I want to re-explore
something before it's shotdown.
if LOST is a combination of these theories:
____________________________________
1. secret government/military scientific research
2. clones
3. or they living organisms that have been integrated with micro chips:
i.e. cyborgs.
4. the whole island has been staged and they've been programmed to believe
they've crashed. (I'm still not sure on this)
____________________________________________________________
Lets find connections and run with it. Some of these have been scattered
about in other threads old and new, some are new takes on same info, anyway...
Here I go:
1. A few of the characters either have direct references to government/science/military
or are alluded to:
A. Military/Government references:
- Sayid (Iraqi military)
- Kates father
- Locke plays military game, known as colonel
- Hurley: says "he's a warrior backhome"
- Danielle Rousseau (scientists possibly funded by military/government?)
- possibly Jack's father?
2. Cloning. There are 2 kinds of cloning: (1.) Realistic kind that we
know right now exists (Dolly the sheep) (2.) the sci-fi version (think
Homer in the hammock) where an individual is simply a duplicated. These
kind lack the complete personality of the person they've been cloned from.
- A "sci-fi" duplicated style clone, would need memories and
experience implanted in them. Neural pathways would have to be cloned.
- Kate says she's a gemini - in astrolory gemini is "twin".
Is Kate a twin or clone? Is Kate really Alex, or is Alex her twin, or
clone? Is Kate's father Robert, Danielle's lover? Or is Kate a clone of
Danielle?
- "Family Business" - reference to Jack and his father. Most
doctors working in a hospital wouldn't refer to their work as a family
business. That was odd. Is Jack and his father involved in another business
that requires a surgeon's skills?
- the lack of hairbrushes (hair used as dna sampling)
3. Cyborgs
Are some or all of the castaways a bio/mechanical lifeforms created by
scientists?
- their wounds heal too fast
- Ethan seems like a "1st draft" cyborg: a superhuman fighting
machine, a military weapon - lacking in personality, and since he's been
in 2 shirts it's been mentioned there may be 2 ethans. Then there is his
last name: rom. If the island itself is a giant fabrication or computer,
Ethan could one of its components.
- Eating food from the island may infect the castaways and their biological
life may end (without their knowing) but they are slowly replaced and
turned into a cyborg. (Claire's baby)
- The "others" are cyborgs.
"The others" takes on new meaning now. Jin refers to the "others"
several times, implying there may be more of a separation between them
besides a cultural barrier. He feeds "the others" but not his
wife. Jack keeps referring to the "others".
4. Staged crash
If they have all been placed there, and the crash never happened, their
memories could have been programed into them whether they are human, clone,
or cyborg through various methods. But there would be glitches and inconsistancies.
Would explain why Rose "knows" her husband is alive, why Walt
doesn't seem bothered too much by the death of his mom, why Locke can
walk, etc.
- This would also explain some of the props that don't make sense: where
did the ax come from, Locke's knives, Danielle's wrong time era stuff.
- Also explains how they survived with few or no injuries.
That's all I can think of now, anybody want to add to this?
sawyerhasbestlines
Cloning would be interesting, though disappointing to me.
It would kind of explain Ethan's strange behaviour; he has a very non-human
way about him.
As for Jack and the family business, I think it's just as simple as what
he said, that he was born into it. Maybe a few generations of men in his
family have been surgeons.
I have no idea where the ax came from, but Locke's knives are perfectly
explainable:
He brought them along for his "Walkabout" in the outback. I'm
sure he has other implements for survival elsewhere too.
shootingstar05
what use is a baby to someone who can clone one ?
yung23
Clones are sterile.
sawyerhasbestlines
Hi there!
My first theory was a "clone theory" and I posted it here a
while back.
A lot of people here dismiss the clone theory and the purgatory theory
for various reasons.
Although, I do not rule out purgatory just because the Writers and Producers
say so ( I think they will lie if necessary...)
because perhaps various elements of both may be incorporated in a different way.
Did you read my clone theory? A lot of the synopsis was written as a "loose
draft" on individual stor
y lines/plots, BUT I still feel there is a cloning element throughout.
In some way it seems to touch on cloning, experiments and memory.
Have fun!
xxandraxx
Hi xxandraxx,
Thank you, I did read it. And I'm totally convinced after mulling it over
for a couple weeks. I thought it worthy of being re discussed now. Mainly
because watching the re-runs it seems clear. Personally, I'm not that
much interested in romantic-y potentials in the show but am curious most
about the island's history and the puzzle of how they are all connected.
I was hoping there were enough people out there (cloners), who were open
to the possibility of the clone theory and we could collectively add to
your clone theory and explore the possibilities together as something
to do during the hiatus.
Within a couple minutes of me putting out this post, Wes put out his opus
(droid inclusive) synopis. So I jumped over to there and let this one
go.
Thanks again xxandraxx. I think if anyone is open and interested in the
science allusions in the show, then it's logical to start thinking about
cloning, droids and mechanical bioforms.
Have a good holiday,
sawyerhasbestlines
Two studies in genetics on the fringes of accepted science are applicable
here. There has been enough experimentation and evidence in ongoing research
on these subjects to keep from deeming them merely "pseudo science":
Genetic Memory - While flying in the face of certain aspects, especially
natural selection, of the accepted Theory of Evolution, a few studies
have produced eveidence that some behaviors may be learned and passed
on to future generations genetically. In one, mice were trained to run
a maze. It was proven that future generations of the mice that learned
the maze would do it in less time than offspring of mice who had never
encountered it. The times improved for each subsequent generation of offspring
from two maze-running parents. These results are inexplicable within the
realms of known genetics, biology, and behavioral science.
Something along these lines could be used pseudoscientifically in fiction
dealing with clones to give them some of the personality, behavior, and
skills of the original DNA donor.Gene Therapy - Much research has been
done in the past decade or so on this promising branch of biomedicine.
It involves the replacement of faulty genes, say for Sickle Cell Anemia
or heart disease, with "normal" ones. It can also be used to
repair or "turn off" cancerous cells. Even the much ballyhooed
stem cell research crosses into the realm of gene therapy. Current methods
use proteins and virii (viruses) to splice bits of DNA into the patient's
(well, at this stage, test subject's) cells. In the future, they hope
to use nanotechnology for this purpose to get faster and more precise
results.
Fictional use of gene therapy can draw upon the fact that it is theoretically
much easier to replace all the genes in a cell than just a tiny, specific
strand on a single chromosome. All that would need to be done is to swap
the a desired nucleus for the nucleus that already occupies the host's
cell. Stretching it a bit furthur, one could use this method in cloning
to replace a host's DNA with that of the subject one wants to clone, thus
negating the very real need to grow a clone from scratch. Theoretically
there would be a period of illness during which the cloned DNA takes over
and transforms the unlucky individual into a genetic match for the cloning
subject. Of course, significant artistic license would be needed to change
bone structure and other seemingly immutable physical characteristics.
Black Dahlia
after my last post about suspending disbelief, i feel funny posting this,
but what can i say- i'm a bundle of contradictions. i have a problem with
the clone theory for practical reasons. according to what i've read on
the subject, the most recent evidence seems to indicate that our genes
have a built in "clock" that determines age, and possibly other
factors, yet unknown. clones would die too soon to be of any use, other
than as organ donors for their originals. you can read about dolly the
cloned sheep and her untimely death at
www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/...ly/133.asp
lachme
Check this out:
From the Clonaid website (they claim there are 13 children clones living)
CLONAID™ ,the first human cloning company in the world, was founded
in February 1997, by RAËL and a group of investors who created the
Valiant Venture Ltd Corporation based in the Bahamas. In the first couple
of years CLONAID™ has already received enormous media coverage.
However, due to the pressure mounted on the Bahamas government by French
journalists, Valiant Venture Ltd was cancelled as government representatives
were thinking the laboratories would be established on the Bahamas Island.
Meanwhile, the list of serious potential customers had grown to more than
250 people! Therefore, during the year 2000, Rael decided to hand over
the CLONAID™ project to Dr. Brigitte Boisselier, a Raelian Bishop,
in order for her to start working on actually cloning the first human
being with a team of well-trained scientists. Dr. Boisselier has PhD degrees
in physical and biomolecular chemistry. In her last job she was a marketing
director for a large chemical company in France.
In the summer of 2000, an American couple that wanted to help develop
this technology in order for them to have a baby contacted Dr. Boisselier.
They were the first major investors funding the equipment and the laboratory
needed and CLONAID’s™ first human cloning laboratory was set
up in early 2001.
In the summer of 2001, following several visits from U.S. government representatives
in our facilities, CLONAID™ decided to pursue its human cloning
project in another country where human cloning is legal.
sawyerhasbestlines
no wonder you started this post, go wait for the mother ship.
ha ha, just kidding, I get scared away from the clone idea in LOST.
It could answer things too easily, mutated animals, Locke, Jacks dad,
mammoths even...
we're back to the first theories guys...
yung23
Quote:
Clones are sterile.
What?
By definition, if the host is fertile, the clone should be. If not, there
is an error, a big error. How are they sterile?
Also, if cloned, why clone them at the age they died? Or are you saying
they didn't crash and they are dopplegangers of those on the flight, which
successfully made it to LAX? If they did crash, why not clone them all
at the same age?
What about the memories? Not just the psychoemotional ones, but the kinesthetic
ones as well. And how do you clone in the language wiring patterns, which
aren't formed until the first or second year but then are hardwired once
formed? Those wirings aren't part of the genetic makeup; they're part
of the physical makeup of the brain AFTER birth.
And why clone a pregnant lady to be pregnant? Why risk the baby if you
want the baby?
If they can do all this, then why not simply heal everyone with the technology?
I mean the world. Heall all paraplegics, all trauma victims. With control
down to the genetic level enabling entire memory transfer, why not repair
genetic disorders and cure all those people as well? Cure Shannon's ashtma
for instance.
For this to be believable at all, you would need to factor in alien technology,
or time travelling Mengeles'. I know, there needs to be a suspension of
disbelief but there are limits. I think cloning them exactly as they were
before the crash just to "see if it works" is not just past
that line - its in a whole other time zone.
ChanceGardener
If you are not open to the clone theory, then why be here? This is for
people who've made the connections and are open for it. It's much more
interesting and imaginative than some of the other theories out there
- and it could potentially be more fun to brainstorm with while the re-runs
are on.
Right now there may be in reality 13 children who are alive and living
as clones. It's claimed that they were created by French scientists in
the 70's on an island near Bermuda. Whether true or not, it's fascinating.
Under the vast umbrella of the word, clone, many potential associations
and definitions are out there. In Lost, there could be simultaneously
co-existing varieties of "clones": clones born from a womb:
giving birth to oneself; a sci-version: duplicated adult with memory chips
and like Data from star trek, clones created in a science lab of duplicated
dna, embryonic stem cells havesting to grow body parts or as a anti-viral,
etc.
- People getting infected with a nano or micromechanical virus that slowly
eats away the living tissue of each person, and the living cells get replaced
by a replicating mechanical virus. In theory, they would die and not know
it. In a sense they, evolve into something else that looks like them,
but microscopically is a facsimile - parasites who have invaded their
host and they live. This could be the "sickness"
- Perhaps the 50 year old corpses are scientific failures of older technology.
Perhaps Ethan is a military weapon - an old prototype.
- Perhaps the literary and philosophical allusions serve as nothing more
than a microchip of information to give a clone a contextual framework
to understand and exist in. Or maybe to prevent another disaster like
the ancient library in Alexandria that burnt down, a database is needed
to keep and store the best of mankind's knowlege. Perhaps the logic there
is if everyone had access to all cumulitive philosophy and knowlege, we
could prevent repeating past disasters and thus the exists the potential
of utopia.
- Perhaps memory chips have been implanted surgically into beings that
are so similar to human - they actually think they are.
Why go down the clone road? Because right now we don't know why the castaways
are there. It was mentioned somewhere on this board that 48 people are
needed to have genetic diversity. Has some kind of catastrophe happened
in the real world that these are the only people left for mankind to continue.
All the literary references provide a guidebook for future beings. Or
is the sickness a necessary step in evolution required for survival: half
human/half biomechanical virus co-existing as a new life form or species.
Way, way down the line in human evolution, men are supposed to become
sterile and eventually men won't exist at all. The only way the human
species can continue is with women giving birth to girls through an artificial
intervention.
sawyerhasbestlines
sawyerhasbestlines said:
Quote:
..- Ethan seems like a "1st draft" cyborg: a superhuman fighting
machine, a military weapon - lacking in personality, and since he's been
in 2 shirts it's been mentioned there may be 2 ethans. Then there is his
last name: rom. If the island itself is a giant fabrication or computer,
Ethan could one of its components...
Sawyerhasbestlines, I'll climb on board your train under the above quoted theory. I've posted several times that Ethan's fight with Jack seemed mechanical. Whereby Ethan moved with such speed, Jack didn't stand a chance. Also, come on people, Ethan's last name is Rom (Read Only Memory). Can't get much more computerized than that.
Hodgepodge
Quote:
If you are not open to the clone theory, then why be here?
Well, I suppose I am in this thread expressing the point of view of disagreement
yet allowing that I may indeed be incorrect and so I list my questions
that reflect my objections so as to hear your theories explaining away
those objections.
Instead, I get sand kicked in my face for daring to question the theory.
Honestly, if you are going to post a theory, I don't think you should
be so thin skinned when it gets challenged, but instead look upon the
questions as an opportunity to see the holes in your theory and develop
explanations for those holes, thus winning converts to your point of view.
As in life, reasoned discourse is what fosters communication, increases
knowledge, and develops understanding among others.
Your cause of the "sickness" now, that is intriguing and probably
deserves its own thread. Course, we only have Dani's belief in this sickness,
so for now I am withholding belief that there really is a sickness at
this point.
As for your theory, I don't mind its suggestion. At present, for the reasons
I stated earlier, I don't agree that is why the castaways are there. I
am willing to concede as a starting point that the technology to clone
a person is available - the hang up I have is with aging them to their
exact ages, and for several their same physical ailments, and the bulk
of their memories. Present adequate reasons for those questions and you
may have converted me to your point of view. Memory chips are an interesting
possible solution to the memory issues, so that could be a possible check
mark for that portion of my objections.
Please, continue speculating hard and theorizing away like mad. Just don't
get huffy when I go "But what about.....?" in it. Threads aren't
just for the proponents of the thread - especially one in which discussion
of the thread is to occur.
Quote:
Way, way down the line in human evolution, men are supposed to become
sterile and eventually men won't exist at all.
Yes, that is a theory that has been put forth by some geneticists, based
on the fact that the Y chromosome started out with like 50-100K genes
and is now down to like 132 genes over the last 50K years. This is perhaps
part of the reason male potency has dropped in the past few centuries
as well. However, this doesn't make clones sterile. So unless you make
clones sterile on purpose (again what for?) then I still am at a loss
as to your "Clones are sterile" comment.
Let me also add that I disagree with several of the ideas that have been
presented; actually about 90% of them roughly. I however do not think
that makes me right and them wrong (or vice versa - except for the Purgatory
ideas - they aren't). My main point of view is we have been given a 5000
piece puzzle in the show and to date we've gotten maybe 15 pieces of that
puzzle and of those pieces, 9 of them are upside down and of the 6 that
are facing up, 4 of them are all one color (looks kinda aqua to me) so
while I enjoy all the speculations being spouted (again, except for Purgatory
ones) I believe we are mostly indulging in mental masturbation for the
moment. Just look at the difference in our perceptions of the show and
the people and the plot from Week 3 to Now for how much we've changed.
By this time next year, we may find we are dealing with cloned castaways
(still, I don't think so) and I will be one of the ones conceding I was
incorrect.
Quote:
This is for people who've made the connections and are open for it.
It's much more interesting and imaginative than some of the other theories
out there - and it could potentially be more fun to brainstorm with while
the re-runs are on.
Um, this point of view I rather strongly (when I looked up my reaction
I found the word 'vehemently' listed) disagree with. I think the Sound
theory or the Time/Dimension Warp theory to be more interesting and more
imaginative as well as allowing a greater range of speculation and possibilities
than 'They Are Clones' does. Granted, this is my opinion, but if you start
a poll between the 3, I think cloning will come in 3rd. I guess what I
am saying is don't break your arm patting yourself on the back over the
idea (especially since its not the first post on the idea).
Pax Vobiscum.
ChanceGardener
uh, yeah- what he said.
lachme
Ahem, Chancey, you must have written this on one of your better days:
"For a few days now, I've been pondering the present tenseness that
is occurring amongst us.
The situation that concerns me the most are our newbies. Over and over
we continue to acquire more members which is exciting and encouraging,
for both the show and for us. More minds, more ideas, more fun, more good
time"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparantly, easier said than done.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sawyerhasbestlines
Actually, I believe I am well within my guidelines SHBL. Disagreeing with
a post's assumptions is not flaming, boone beating, or impolite.
Person A says "AHA, I've this great idea! Here it is..."
Everyone else says, "Wow, never thought of that, you could be right"
or "that ties in with my idea on this" or "but how did
they get from Point A to Point B if as you say...." or "no,
I don't think this is right for THESE reasons"
All quite valid, communicative, and within the thread.
2 additional points: you were past the 50 post count when I responded
to your idea AND you STILL haven't addressed any of my objections.
Saying "DON"T TOUCH" isn't gonna cut it simply cause you
don't have a response.
Of course, once again, I may be wrong about this? Anyone else care to
comment? Either on:
1. the validity or invalidity of SHBL's original idea
2. my disagreement with SHBL as to his idea being correct OR with my disagreement
on commenting in a thread if I disagree with the idea in the first place
3. SHBL's contention I am not following my own suggestion
Again, you say cloning, I say inter-dimensional time warp vortices activated
through sound generated vibrational interference waves. Not saying I am
right here; just saying I see many holes in your theory and you've not
explained them away. Is there a reason why not?
Or perhaps anyone else can fill Sawyer's holes?
ChanceGardener
I'm a lover not a fighter.
All I'm here for was to support Xxander's fantabulous theory - which is
the same one my 10 year old niece came up with also. She and her older
brother visit this board and this is a fun thing we can do together with
a 2 thousand mile barrier between us.
Sorry to hear you are not a clone fan. I'd like to hear more about the
one's that rock your boat. I'll keep a lookout.
Peace be with you,
sawyerhasbestlines
Also, I may have missed this answer, but how again are clones sterile?
Good enough. There's a thread listing all the major theories somewhere
around here. Several ideas, good, bad, strange, unlikely are all listed
there. Even about cloning. I've posted some ideas that are buried in there
somewhere as well as YEAs and NAYs to other ideas besides cloning.
Again, not saying you're wrong with cloning (well ok, maybe a little bit
I am), just asking for explanations shooting down my objections. Still
at a loss as to why such a request is fighting and not discussing.
ChanceGardener
Sometimes ideas are like little plants. For them to flourish they need
to nourished and given room to grow.
You've already stated you don't like or believe in the clone idea. You
are a non-believer. So from my point of view - it's futile to try to convert
a non-believer. It's like trying to convince a fundementalist christian
to vote for John Kerry. That's too hard of a task that I'm not getting
paid for.
Brainstorming and exploration is a lucid free-flowing process. It's organic,
it grows. I simply combined one of Xxander's ideas with a couple others
like a dada poem and was hoping people would add to it, and by the end
of the thread, something new and hopefully relevent would emerge. You
know the game, exquisite corpse?
So if I resist your point by point style of communicating, it's just because
I wanna play "exquisite corpse", and I don't wanna play "legal
deposition." Not as much fun. Sorry.
Let's just let this thread die and not bump it up anymore, unless someone
genuinely wants to get into it.
sawyerhasbestlines
wow- shbl must want to be a politician when it grows up...did you see
prettily it didn't answer a single one of your objections? rhetoric is
the gift that just keeps giving...
lachme
next time,
"you ever go temporarily insane, don't shoot somebody, like a lot
of people do. Instead, try to get some weeding done, because you'd really
be surprised."
-- Jack Handey [Deep Thoughts], Saturday night live
sawyerhasbestlines
i have to admit sawyer, I mull over this all day....
slowly climbing aboard...
yung23
I'm sorry, does this mean they are or aren't sterile?
Also, so I can expand my mind, I thought brainstorming was the process
whereby ideas were generated. The goal of brainstorming was to create.
When you start a thread on a specific topic, how does brainstorming then
apply? Is that not a contradiction? Truly, I am puzzled by this.
I have always believed that you start a thread on 'something' then you
talk about that something or why that something doesn't work or it works
with something else or here are examples agreeing with the something,
here are examples in opposition to the something. Now that I think on
it, isn't that brainstorming? The creation of tenets and obstacles and
mechanics as to why the something can be or not be?
And in addition to being curious as to why clones are sterile, I still
want to know WHY they were cloned exactly as they were when the plane
crashed and then have let 3 of them die already. That had to be a massive
investment of time and material to create EXACT copies, then damage them
and a transcontinental airliner for what?
How are these questions antagonistic? Or even unsupportive? Since when
did disagreeing mean being mean?
ChanceGardener
Chance,
Apparantly (in reality) most clones don't live very long, and a high percentage
of them are sterile. Why are they sterile? Nobody really knows yet. Some
species clone more successfully than others. There is also a wide grey
area to define success. A clone that actually makes it all the way to
birth is one success, one that lives a few years is a huge success. The
goal would be an even bigger success: a perfectly healthy being that lives
a long healthy life with no freaky kinks in it's dna. We are not there
yet.
sawyerhasbestlines
That I did not know, thank you for the information. Must be something
to do with inserting the cloned genes into the ovum. Or is inserted into
a zygote?
ChanceGardener
Chance,
Apparantly (in reality) most clones don't live very long, and a high percentage
of them are sterile. Why are they sterile? Nobody really knows yet. Some
species clone more successfully than others. There is also a wide grey
area to define success. A clone that actually makes it all the way to
birth is one success, one that lives a few years is a huge success. The
goal would be an even bigger success: a perfectly healthy being that lives
a long healthy life with no freaky kinks in it's dna. We are not there
yet.
______________________________________________________
" WHY they were cloned exactly as they were when the plane crashed and then have let 3 of them die already."
This part I don't exactly know what you are saying. But I'll take a guess
and try to answer you as best I can...then I have to go back to work...
I don't have answers, how could I as the show is still going and all we
can do is speculate with a hodge podge of clues jumbled with red herrings.
But here's a couple replies that fall in the sci-fi realm. I'm going with
the sci-fi version because if I looked at it as realistic then the show
(in my opinion) would fall into the soap opera genre and I don't like
or watch those.
1. What if there was some huge catastraphe in reality (say a hydrogen
bomb) where much of life as we know it is now gone. The plane was pre-programmed
to crash were it did. What if the point was to have a few genetic specimens
in one place for the purpose of artificially starting over. In this mode
of thinking, while they are on the island, they get infected with a micro-mechanical
virus that provides them with super healing capacities and possible (psychic)
ones as well, thus creating an artificial evolution of super humans in
an artificial garden of eden. A new era begins.
2. The big invisible monsters need bodies. Why? Either to harvest their
dna to create their own beings either for parts (stem cell), or they may
simply be invisible beings in need of a host body.
3. Some of the people may have been born a clone a long time ago, and
just like a test tube baby, don't know they are one. They may feel alive
and as human as we do. But they may have a micro chip installed in them
that programs them to return (home) to the island. Then go back up to
#1.
4. Maybe all the crashees are all human, but "the others" once
were, but are not now. Maybe the others were all once part of some secret
scientific research and it went awry. Ethan may be at a stage where he
is an "in-between". We don't know what he's up to yet, but maybe
he functions as a go between, stealing people for "the others."
For the record, I never suggested anybody died and came back as a clone
- someone else may have brought that up somewhere but I never said anything
like that. That's a little too Michael Jackson for me.
I'm just suggesting that all of them may be simultaneously in various
stages of "cloneness": some may be newly infected and turning
into something else, some may have been created a long time ago like a
research scientist cloning himself, Claire's baby may be subjected to
some kind of experimentation, etc.
That's it for now, got to go to work. I hope that satisfies some of your
questions. Again, I didn't invent the clone theory, and I don't know if
I'm sold either. Just something fun to think about and I'm a supporter
of Xxandrax's theory. He/she probably has more understanding than I do
or be better equipped to answer questions. I certainly am not a science
person and I'm not much of a sci-fi fan either. My comfort zone is more
in the psychological/mythological/symbolism and literature.
Have a good one,
sawyerhasbestlines
Quote:
" WHY they were cloned exactly as they were when the plane crashed
and then have let 3 of them die already."
This part I don't exactly know what you are saying. But I'll take a guess
and try to answer you as best I can...then I have to go back to work...
Ok, you're saying not enough info to posit a reasonable solution to the
question, I can accept that to a certain extent. Actually I should have
to, since I've been saying the same thing from the beginning with other
theories. Still, I'd like to discuss some of your points further.
Quote:
1. What if there was some huge catastraphe in reality (say a hydrogen
bomb) where much of life as we know it is now gone. The plane was pre-programmed
to crash were it did. What if the point was to have a few genetic specimens
in one place for the purpose of artificially starting over. In this mode
of thinking, while they are on the island, they get infected with a micro-mechanical
virus that provides them with super healing capacities and possible (psychic)
ones as well, thus creating an artificial evolution of super humans in
an artificial garden of eden. A new era begins.
Ok, I see 2, maybe 3 different ideas here (from my pov) so I'm gonna address
them that way.
...a)don't think there was an E.L.E. that occurred so I don't think that
is the reason for the plane crash. I think the reason is either a MacGuffin,
or we lack enough puzzle pieces still. So, theories 'r' us on the crash
still.
...b)virus theory has some pull, both for what has occurred with the survivors
but mostly with what Dani has told Sayid. Having them be mechanoid viruses
is a rather intriguing twist which would help explain how the virus stays
limited to the island and not spread throughout the world - though, there
are still natural viruses (Ebola et al) that are still isolated even though
population centers are increasingly near their source. But still, it would
keep the virus contained because the programming could be set to not allow
the virus to leave the area
...c)if mech-viruses, that brings us into the realm of nanotech of which
I have some concerns there as well. That can be addressed in the Nanites
thread.
Cloning as a possibility would certainly explain Locke's ability to walk
after his healing (though in thinking of it, if whatever healed his nerve
damage, assuming it was nerve damage, then that something could reinvigorate
his muscle tissue, which is another sticky point that should be further
addressed in the nanite thread) as a cloned Locke would not have the physical
damage AND would have normal muscle function as well. Again, that would
be assuming he was cloned to be his exact age and the process exercised
his body such that his muscles, viscera, and skeletal frame were strengthened.
(Would a clone maintain the muscle memories learned over a lifetime? I've
been dancing for over 10 years now and if I were cloned, my brain would
know the moves, but trust me, you need the muscle memory to be functioning
with that as well).
Also, several of them have tattoos. They would have had to tattoo the
clones; does that mean we should assume they had complete physical views
(unclothed in other words) so they could replicate "all" tattoos?
And what about scars? Would they duplicate those as well, or will our
survivors start remarking on missing knee injuries and the like?
Since these details haven't been addressed by the writers so far, plus
the amount of time, material, and effort required to clone at least 50
people, are what lead me to still say I don't believe we are dealing with
clones.
I am more of the opinion that everything is tied and generated by the
island. Again, not sure how or why - back to the too few puzzle pieces.
The one part of your response that does seem to hold the most promise
for me is #4. Something is causing changes; some changes are fast (Locke)
some are slower (Charlie's withdrawal symptoms over in a few days). The
violence we are seeing might also be attributed to Dani's warning, but
I rather view that as due to culture shock stripping away ingrained societal
behaviors, so I don't think we can say we are seeing the kinds of 'change'
Dani warned Sayid to watch for. But such a theory does hold up well with
all that Dani has said - IF her memories are still sane.
Again, I'll give you that I could be wrong here and somehow cloning is
involved. I can accept there still isn't enough info to rule it out. Perhaps
others, such as those who first proposed cloning as a premise, could weigh
back in with their thoughts.
As stated, I am more in 'its the island dude' camp, though the nanite
newbies have presented some interesting possibilities that have strengthened
their case; they've not adequately addressed my objections, but there
are certainly some good ideas addressing several of them.
Oh, forgot, the stem cell idea is an interesting reason for providing
a source for harvest, except I keep coming back to the deaders. The possibility
that only some are cloned and not others does cover a good deal of that
(deaders weren't clones - a thought, the clones somehow can survive better.
Jack <a clone?> didn't drown, swimmer girl did and Boone almost
did<not clones?>. Charlie lived after being dead<a clone?>
) but if that were so, then why still have them at risk on the beach?
And why leave Dani and Ethan as loose cannons, allowing Dani to kill and
Ethan to put the baby at risk? Yes, not enough info, so maybe these are
in the unanswered questions category, but they are the questions raised
by this train of thought.
So, my brain is tired now (actually, I have a cramp in my hand) so I will
just leave off with a call to have the original proCloners to weigh in
and antiCloners to also weigh in. Perhaps enough ideas will filter in
to give this theory bigger legs or to set it on one of the upper shelves
for now.
SHBL, points for sticking with me and addressing my objections. I believe
that is how a thread should work. Good form.
ChanceGardener
OK, I used to be enamored of cloning, but I have to admit - grudingly
- that Chance has persuaded me the theory has no legs. In particular,
I can't for the life of me figure out why they would bother cloning a
woman with her fetus in utero.
That said, I actually disagree with Chance that speculations like the
Sound Theory make much sense in the context of the show. My objection
has little to do with the believability or elegance of such theories,
which are admittedly fascinating to read. I just don't think they'd work
in the context of a show like Lost because they would require too much
explication.
Think, for example, how much background would be necessary to clue viewers
into the Sound Theory. Some character (presumably one with a strong scientific
background) would inevitably have to tell the others what was happening
and why. (And that's leaving aside the question of how on earth he/she
would discover what was happening in the first place.)
I don't know about you, but I hate scenes like that in movies or books.
The old adage remains true here: better to show than tell. That's why,
for all their intellectual faults, theories like aliens, clones, etc.
remain the most viable to me. They can be shown (e.g., with a scene of
the alien craft, or a warehouse full of clones) rather than merely revealed
by telling in some long, talky scene.
awsecond
"Cloning as a possibility would certainly explain Locke's ability
to walk after his healing (though in thinking of it, if whatever healed
his nerve damage, assuming it was nerve damage, then that something could
reinvigorate his muscle tissue, which is another sticky point that should
be further addressed"
I'm not sure about this, so don't hold me to it, but my boyfriend claims
there is a "machine" next to Locke's bed when he's on the phone
(not the gieger counter) that is a muscle stimulator.
sawyerhasbestlines
Yes, others have stated its a TENS unit, designed for that very purpose.
So Locke could have been good to go once the impediment was fixed/removed.
The need to explain the Sound Theory to make it understandable is pretty
valid, but I think it could be shown somehow without alot of technobabble.
Like finding an abandoned lab and figuring out the notes left behind.
With bodies strewn about from dying due to a coolant leak or 'the sickness.'
But yes, there are flaws in that theory as well. I prefer it mostly because
I can use it to give a somewhat probable explanation for the plane crash
and their subsequent survival. Plus the voices. And behavioral changes:
a shopping mall would put in "Do Not Steal" messages subliminally
under the Muzak; after a time, the workers in the mall started having
psych problems. When the message was removed, problems went away. Still
there are flaws in the theory, agreed.
And yes, one of my strongest rejections that they were cloned is indeed
Claire - that just doesn't seem to make sense to me if they've been cloned.
(I know, not enough info, but even so still can't think of a reason that
makes near enough sense for justifying doing it.)
And again, it may indeed be several theories that are all partially correct
and ALL those theories happen to have come together on this island- some
are clones, there is a virus/sickness, there is a time/interdimensional
warp, the island is alive/doing things, and maybe even a few others (to
let in the all important Vikings to appear in the 3rd season). Maybe that
is why it is hard to figure it all out - there IS more than one reason
to explain what is going on.
To paraphrase Locke: they're having a bad month.
Oh, one last thing. SHBL, I've noticed if the youngsters who post are
known as youngsters (there was a 13 yr old who posted some stuff which
was well received) they are given some slack and sometimes even more points
are given due to their age. Perhaps your daughter could start her next
theory or post with "I know I'm only 10 but I've been thinking..."
Might give some responders pause before they reply. Just a thought.
ChanceGardener
Not enough coffee yet to thoroughly comprehend... but I did get the Viking
reference.
JacksGirlfriend
"And yes, one of my strongest rejections that they were cloned is
indeed Claire - that just doesn't seem to make sense to me if they've
been cloned. (I know, not enough info, but even so still can't think of
a reason that makes near enough sense for justifying doing it.)"
I don't think Claire is a clone, but "the others" may have a
use for her baby and her womb.
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"it may indeed be several theories that are all partially correct"
I'm on total agreement on this.
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Chance,
Could you guide me to "sound theory". Checked indexes, can't
find it.
sawyerhasbestlines
Quote:
Or perhaps anyone else can fill Sawyer's holes?
I'm sure some percentage of avid Lost viewers are gay men and exceptionally
kinky women who would love to do just that.
Cloning recap:
- Clones are not exact copies. The goal is to create an exact genetic
copy of an individual, not a carbon copy. YOU CANNOT CLONE A FULL-GROWN
ADULT AND EXPECT TO GET A FULL-GROWN ADULT COPY, except after the clone
naturally ages a number of years corresponding to the clonee's age. The
pair would not be like identical twins, they would be like identical twins
born 30 years apart. Jeez, even Attack of the Clones had to come up with
a hokey (growth acceleration serum) explanation for this phenomenon.
- Clones are not sterile. Ligers (lion + tiger) and jackasses (horse +
donkey) are sterile because they are the result of a pregnancy between
two different species. People with Down's Syndrome are sterile because,
posssibly in addition to other reasons, they have 47 chromosomes instead
of the normal human 46. Clones suffer from neither of these defects -
they suffer only at the hands of unskilled humans using nascent technology.
I can state from personal experience that researches in the biological
sciences are not particularly good problem solvers, nor are they exceptionally
innovative. Once the science has evolved a bit, early death and sterility
for clones will cease to be a problem.
- "Microchips" have nothing to do with clones or cloning, unless
they are of the kind used for finding a lost pet. Even the superest of
today's supercomputers can't recognize all speech, much less produce a
convincing virtual reality (things they promised 15 years ago would have
occurred by five years ago), and they certainly cannot interface with
the human mind in a comprehensive fashion. Researchers are still discoveing
the anatomy and physiology of the brain, and it will be quite some while,
barring ground-breaking innovation, before the analog nuances of the brain's
neurochemistry can be known enough to invent a digital interface for it.
Black Dahlia
Just got back from another Lost website and was happy to find another
Clone thread going on relating to Ethan.
The chatter there in a nutshell was:
- there is an army of Ethans running around the island, disappearing into
holes.
- after awhile clones can't replicate anymore, and they need new dna
- writers of the show are including pseudo-science
----------
I've looked a bunch of stuff online and there is contradictory info on
clones. Some say clones are sterile, some say most are sterile. I've even
found a site referred above, that actually claims to have made human clones.
But here is a thought. Let's say clones are never sterile ever, but on
the island "the others" are men. Well, I guess they would need
some fertile chicks to get more dna in the pool.
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sawyerhasbestlines
"Quote:
Or perhaps anyone else can fill Sawyer's holes?
I'm sure some percentage of avid Lost viewers are gay men and exceptionally
kinky women who would love to do just that."
... good one, Dahlia,
thanks for the input and the giggles
sawyerhasbestlines
Try this link SHBL:
Sound theory link
Quote:
Or perhaps anyone else can fill Sawyer's holes?
And, um, I don't think that the Sawyer on the show was the Sawyer that
Dahlia had in mind....
ChanceGardener
I am all for everyone putting up their two cents, I love reading the board
and get a big giggle out of a lot of the comments.
I for one however, really hope that it is NOT clones, it is way too "Star
Trekky" for me and I was never a fan.
BUT if they are indeed making clones on that island, I REALLY hope they
start with Sawyer. A bunch of half nekkid Sawyers running around a tropical
island... hmmmm my idea of heaven (or purgatory, whichever theory you
like)
KissMESawyer