Reality & the Virtual

Freud meets the Matrix?

"Antisocial Personality Disorder is also known as psychopathy or sociopathy. Individuals with this disorder have little regard for the feeling and welfare of others.

There are ten general symptoms:

not learning from experience no sense of responsibility inability to form meaningful relationships inability to control impulses lack of moral sense chronically antisocial behavior no change in behavior after punishment emotional immaturity lack of guilt self-centeredness

People with this disorder may exhibit criminal behavior. They may not work. If they do work, they are frequently absent or may quit suddenly. They do not consider other people's wishes, welfare or rights.

They can be manipulative and may lie to gain personal pleasure or profit. They may default on loans, fail to provide child support, or fail to care for their dependents adequately. High risk sexual behavior and substance abuse are common. Impulsiveness, failure to plan ahead, aggressiveness, irritability, irresponsibility, and a reckless disregard for their own safety and the safety of others are traits of the antisocial personality.

Psychotherapy, group therapy, and family therapy are common treatments. The effects of medical treatment are inconclusive.

Unfortunately, most people with Antisocial Personality Disorder reject treatment.

Therefore, recovery rates are low."

Perhaps what is called for is total emersion in a wildly different and threatening environment intentionally structured to breakdown and modify behavior.

But, how to do this effectively without invoking the old punch line, "the operation was a success, but the patient died"?

Virtual reality?

I am starting to toy with the idea that island is a digital construct into which persons manifesting various forms of sociopathic behavior are interjected for therapeutical reasons. Sort of Sigmund Freud meets the Matrix.

Obviously this would take one heck of a lot of computing power, but we are talking science fiction here.

But if you accept the premise .....

Criminals "sentenced" to the island?

Patients who either currently are or threaten to become dysfunctional?

Not all present need to fall into those descriptions. Some might be therapists or sub rosa guides. Some might themselves be constructs. Others might be persons who participate voluntarily to escape for a time the unfortunate conditions of their real world existence.

And, of course, technology being technology, there would be the possibility of unexpected glitches. Could certain personalities become trapped, or the construct retain the echoes of prior participants? Could there be incongruities caused by the bleed over of different scenarios?

Given the aforementioned amount of computing power that would be required to pull this all off, perhaps it would not be surprising to find a budding AI, with its own agenda, manifesting itself in various ways.

Even as monsters.

NeillT006

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Perhaps "Rene Descartes meets Sigmund Freud in The Matrix for a reading of John Milton's Paradise Lost" is a more encompassing heading . . .

Your suggestion fascinates.

What if the "sub rosa guides" occasionally visit "exits" from the system? -- could an in-therapy character perhaps discover one of these?

Wes Cohn

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Wow, Neil.

I am amazed by this. We once had a theory making reference to a plane filled with people exhibiting psychotic behavior, but this is truly beyond the scope of that. In the earlier days of the board there were quite a few people thinking in psychological terms. We've since diverted in many directions.

I'm assuming in your theory these people are all strangers. That would explain the distance between Walt and Michael, the conflict between Sun and Jin and the so-called attraction between Boone and Shannon. It would also explain mysterious crashing noises, pilots being yanked from trees, whispering voices in the jungle. The theory also offers a chance for damaged people to find what they seek most in life (Locke's ability to walk) and a place to grapple with their deepest fears (Charlie's failure to save Claire perhaps translates into losing a brother to drug addiction?). It also offers redemption (Charlie "coming back from the dead" after his hanging). In essence, anything can happen here.

At present I'm still not ready to relinquish my alternate dimension delusions because they intrigue me and offer the kinds of things I was hoping to see, but this one offers a lot of potential. I'll never get Vikings with this, but I can definitely see where it works. I would like to hear what else is on your mind. I can actually see a theory like this explaining just about everything we've seen and even though it's not my personal choice (for now) I can also see it being right. I could possibly jump on the band wagon with this one and if that's the case, I'll buy you a drink.

Where have you been hiding, Neil? I saw you've only posted once since November. You're obviously a man with ideas. Why haven't we seen more?

JacksGirlfriend

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Yes, I confess a jealousy for the way this theory plunges into psychological convolutions -- whereas my own was rather stuck in what philosophers term "the Gross Realm," or the tangible, material world within which bodies and matter collude.

There are insights here, simply phrased, that vibrate with potential.

JG:

Don't so swiftly rule out your Vikings. Might not the confrontation of adolescent fantasy be among the island's oeuvre of sociopathic remedies?

Edit:

It's a universal dictum that sanity and clarity are synonymous; as philosophical investigation and epistemological rumination approach comprehension and complexity, they concordantly approach accessable, sensical and easily-conveyed rationality. Thus, "higher realms" of thought -- if truly such -- are never difficult to understand, because the truths of their high complexity are readily evident (and knowledge thus approximates the Buddhist aphorism, "You've come here to learn what you already know.").

Judging speculation according to this "sense" of relative accessability, I can say that your theory, Neil, is so far the most sensible and understandable and insightful I've come into contact with.

It "feels" very plausible and accurate.

I hereby bestow the following emblem for use by all adherents of the Neill theory:

Wes Cohn

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

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Don't so swiftly rule out your Vikings. Might not the confrontation of adolescent fantasy be among the island's oeuvre of sociopathic remedies?

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- Gosh, Wes, if I weren't so secure in my womanhood I might think you were poking fun at my adolescent fantasies. Believe me there is nothing adolescent about them. I may not have enough real world experience in this realm, but I can guarantee my fantasy life is alive and well. Viking... pirates... a girl can dream right? Yes, the more I think about Neil's theory, the more I think it could work. It wasn't exactly what I had in mind, but I think we can use it to explain just about everything. I'd like to hear more from Neil. Let's just hope he doesn't vanish or take another month long hiatus before he can explain everything on his mind.

JacksGirlfriend

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

I insulted you without intending to. My apologies, kind madame.

Wes Cohn

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

No, you didn't insult me. I thought it was kind of cute.

JacksGirlfriend

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

wow that makes a lot of sense. I was just telling a friend last night how I thought Kate was a sociopath.

rosalind711

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

It's wierd, but I like it. I like it because it explains why people just keep coming on back to the (ssshhhhh!!!) purgatory theory. Here you have a group of people sent off to be redeemed and cleansed of their illness (sins). Folks can be forgiven for seeing dead people in Purgatory instead of live people in a treatment facility.

Maybe Danielle was a failed effort at treatment. Maybe the Others are the therapists. Maybe Claire was removed temporarily for the birth of her baby. Hmmmmmm.

Since all personality disorders have about the same treatment sucess rate, let's add the rest of them. I'm sure everyone on the island can fall into at least one catagory:

Paranoid
Paranoid personality disorder is characterized by a distrust of others and a constant suspicion that people around you have sinister motives. People with this disorder tend to have excessive trust in their own knowledge and abilities and usually avoid close relationships with others. They search for hidden meanings in everything and read hostile intentions into the actions of others. They are quick to challenge the loyalties of friends and loved ones and often appear cold and distant to others. They usually shift blame to others and tend to carry long grudges.

Schizoid
People with schizoid personality disorder avoid relationships and do not show much emotion. They genuinely prefer to be alone and do not secretly wish for popularity. They tend to seek jobs that require little social contact. Their social skills are often weak and they do not show a need for attention or acceptance. They are perceived as humorless and distant and often are termed "loners."

Schizotypal
Many believe that schizotypal personality disorder represents mild schizophrenia. The disorder is characterized by odd forms of thinking and perceiving, and individuals with this disorder often seek isolation from others. They sometimes believe to have extra sensory ability or that unrelated events relate to them in some important way. They generally engage in eccentric behavior and have difficulty concentrating for long periods of time. Their speech is often over elaborate and difficult to follow.

Antisocial
A common misconception is that antisocial personality disorder refers to people who have poor social skills. The opposite is often the case. Instead, antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of conscience. People with this disorder are prone to criminal behavior, believing that their victims are weak and deserving of being taken advantage of. They tend to lie and steal. Often, they are careless with money and take action without thinking about consequences. They are often agressive and are much more concerned with their own needs than the needs of others.

Borderline
Borderline personality disorder is characterized by mood instability and poor self-image. People with this disorder are prone to constant mood swings and bouts of anger. Often, they will take their anger out on themselves, causing themselves injury. Suicidal threats and actions are not uncommon. They think in very black and white terms and often form intense, conflict-ridden relationships. They are quick to anger when their expectations are not met.

Histrionic
People with histrionic personality disorder are constant attention seekers. They need to be the center of attention all the time, often interrupting others in order to dominate the conversation. They use grandiose language to describe everyday events and seek constant praise. They may dress provocatively or exaggerate illnesses in order to gain attention. They also tend to exaggerate friendships and relationships, believing that everyone loves them. They are often manipulative.

Narcissistic
Narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by self-centeredness. Like histrionic disorder, people with this disorder seek attention and praise. They exaggerate their achievements, expecting others to recognize them as being superior. They tend to be choosy about picking friends, since they believe that not just anyone is worthy of being their friend. They tend to make good first impressions, yet have difficulty maintaining long-lasting relationships. They are generally uninterested in the feelings of others and may take advantage of them.

Avoidant
Avoidant personality disorder is characterized by extreme social anxiety. People with this disorder often feel inadequate, avoid social situations, and seek out jobs with little contact with others. They are fearful of being rejected and worry about embarassing themselves in front of others. They exaggerate the potential difficulties of new situations to rationalize avoiding them. Often, they will create fantasy worlds to substitute for the real one. Unlike schizoid personality disorder, avoidant people yearn for social relations yet feel they are unable to obtain them. They are frequently depressed and have low self-confidence.

Dependent
Dependent personality disorder is characterized by a need to be taken care of. People with this disorder tend to cling to people and fear losing them. They may become suicidal when a break-up is imminent. They tend to let others make important decisions for them and often jump from relationship to relationship. They often remain in abusive relationships. They are overly sensitive to disapproval. They often feel helpless and depressed.

Obsessive-Compulsive
Obsessive-Compulsive personality disorder is similar to obsessive-compulsive anxiety disorder. People with this disorder are overly focused on orderliness and perfection. Their need to do everything "right" often interferes with their productivity. They tend to get caught up in the details and miss the bigger picture. They set unreasonably high standards for themselves and others, and tend to be very critical of others when they do not live up to these high standards. They avoid working in teams, believing others to be too careless or incompetent. They avoid making decisions because they fear making mistakes and are rarely generous with their time or money. They often have difficulty expressing emotion.

Locke is probably schizoid. Jack - paranoid? Charlie seems dependent. Kate and Sawyer? Antisocial, narcissistic, paranoid stew.

Rose and Hurley strike me as guides. They're present and interacting with the others, but not involved in the fray.

Still can't quite place the others that we know something about. Boone seems borderline. At this point I don't see Sayid as a guide, but I can't get satisfied with another catagory for him.

Need more time to think......

drypelia

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Editing this post because apparently drypelia and I wrote ours at the same time (or I wouldn't have repeated hers).

I will add that mental health is my "family business," (like Jack), so I am sensitive as to how the abstract categories dry listed are applied. There is a lot of controversy regarding just what is and isn't a Personality Disorder, as there is a lot on new evidence on which disorders have biological components (most of those listed above) and which have a more complicated etiology (borderline, narcissism). So keep in mind that my post refers to observation and therapy in the field.

I am always excited by psychological theories, but I get nervous when people toss around labels, etc. Given what we know, I can't say that anyone on the island exhibits obvious sociopathic behavior; but that remains to be seen, because a true sociopath may be a good mimic and pass for some time in a group. If you want to get down-and-dirty with DSM-IV, you do have a lot of possible diagnoses, however. For one, nearly everyone would be suffering from PTSD. The only one who hasn't exhibited any signs of it is Walt, which is a warning sign in itself (or perhaps just because kids are resilient).

Here is my armchair analysis of the main characters:

Jack-neurotic (actually, most of us are, it's quite normal), likely depressed about his father before the added PTSD of the crash.

Kate-she has empathy, so she's not a sociopath. And she doesn't exhibit BPD (borderline personality disorder). I would say she's mixed up (needs therapy) but is not a candidate for medication. We need to know more to judge.

Locke-Possibly bipolar. The true bipolar has variable episodes of mania and deep depression, with mania characterized by misjuding reality and assuming that one has resources (money, power, intellectual capacity) beyond the norm. So far he DOES seem to function well, however. So who's to say he's out-of-touch with his environment? Yet on the mainland he may have been.

Michael--seems OK so far.

Jin--seems abusive and controlling. Could be the neurotic results of abuse, could be BPD.

Sun--seems depressed, but trying to develop coping mechanisms (gardening, reaching out to others)

Shannon--depressed, narcissistic. Otherwise normal.

Boone--possibly narcissistic. DEFINITELY a possibility for BPD, characterized by being helpful and charming one moment and then turning in anger on those he's close to. Boone and Shannon bear the marks of a co-dependent relationship.

Sayid--no problems that I can see, other than a (neurotic) projection of his own past onto his encounter with Sawyer.

Rose--depressed, but with a good understanding of this, and good coping mechanisms.

Charlie--deeply depressed, possibly suicidal, with touches of the hysteric. Otherwise normal.

Hurley--no problems I can see, other than simple neurosis.

Sawyer--he's fun. Narcissistic, possibly borderline. He could be a sociopath IF we don't believe the remorse and confusion he's shown.

OK, why have a bothered with all this? True APD is biological in origin (of course this is controversial, but there is mounting evidence), as the patient lacks the ability for empathy and remorse. That is, it's a kind of emotional autism. This is not true, as far as is known, for BPD and other personality disorders. Psychosis has a biological component and is very different. Depending on its severity, there are many treatments available that allow sufferers to live communally.

And none of this disputes the "Matrix" theory, I just have a bug up my ass about people tossing around terms from the DSM.

drabauer

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Dr:

So I am guessing that what you are saying is that we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was Bipolar Bear? NeillT006

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Neill: very funny. But I hate to tell you that joke has appeared twice before on these boards!

Ah, the weight of history! drabauer

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Didn't know that APD was considered biological in origin and the other PD's are not. Maybe science just doesn't know enough about any personality disorders yet. Also didn't mean to push anybody's buttons, dr.

I was bringing in the other disorders simply as a discussion tool. If they're on the island for some sort of treatment, then what might each one be getting treated for? And I was making the assumption that you wouldn't go to all this trouble to treat someone for garden-variety neurosis, so, given what we know about the Lost ones so far, what sort of rather severe disorder might they be in treatment for?

That said, not a single one of them actually strikes me as having any personality disorder. Narcissism is evident, but not really Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Same goes for all the other disorders. Plenty of paranoia to go around, but under the circumstances that seems like a reasonable response. Even Locke, who seems like someone with some reality issues, can't really be pinned down to a personality disorder. There's no reason to ship him off to the Matrix Treatment Facility for something like bi-polar - that can be treated reasonably well right here at home. Since personality disorders are notoriously difficult to treat (usually because the patient quits), that seems like the most likely diagnosis for someone sent to the MTF. If there are other possibilities, bring 'em on!

drypelia

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Drypelia:

I see Locke as one who may have bought his way into the experience as a break from the reality of his handicap.

NeillT006

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

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- not a single one of them actually strikes me as having any personality disorder.

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- Of course not. If we go on the assumption they're undergoing some kind of treatment for their disorders, or perhaps even an experiment for some other reason, then they would appear perfectly fine. We're seeing all of this from their perspectives and, according to them, they're all fine and dandy. It's the rest of the world that has problems.

Dry: Personally I loved everything you said, particularly about Claire being removed to have the baby. Suddenly the whole conspiracy makes sense.

dr - keep those thoughts coming. It's always nice to have a resident expert.

Neil - stand up in your spare time?

JacksGirlfriend

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

No problem dry, I had written my post to Neill originally, then felt I had to respond to the list. As you can imagine, the whole issue of PDs is a hornet's nest in contemporary psychology/psychiatry, and I by no means am as current as a practioner would be.

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Maybe science just doesn't know enough about any personality disorders yet.

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This is indisputably true!

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Absolutely, I see your point. So I guess I'm passive-aggressively voting no on Neill's idea, because I don't see too many candidates for such a severe therapy. I would just go whole-hog for a "scientific experiment" in that case, and forget the therapeutic angle.

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Since personality disorders are notoriously difficult to treat (usually because the patient quits), that seems like the most likely diagnosis for someone sent to the MTF. If there are other possibilities, bring 'em on!

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- Here again I'd agree. Since part of most PDs is a hostile and suspicious attitude toward any authority figure, much less a doctor or therapist, they ARE the most difficult to treat. But I have enjoyed this discussion, because I actually think it's more interesting to look at the broad range of personality types and coping mechanisms the castaways have. That is, they not only represent different ages, occupations and ethnicities, they have completely different ways of dealing with the stress of their situation, and of the secrets they all carry. If they all had PDs then it would be all fighting all the time

drabauer

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Oooooooooooo!!!! Now I'm starting to think it would be cool to have a separate discussion area just for armchair psychoanalysis!

Trouble is, you need a little more backstory than we have in order to get very far. We know Locke was in a wheelchair and hates to have someone tell him what he can't do, but how did he become so flat-out confident of his abilities? Even people who are very good at something will often have a lot of self-doubt (like Jack). So what did Locke's mother tell him about himself? Did she tell him he was brilliant and invincible and he believed it, or did she tell him he was an incompetent idiot and he's spent his whole life proving her wrong (and yes, I know his mother might have been a wonderful, grounded human being)? I lean toward the second possibility. The man is so driven to show what he can do, while making it look like it's nothing to him.

And of course, if refusing to acknowledge your limitations is his favorite coping mechanism, Locke sure landed in the right place! Or the place got the right man. Still haven't decided which is more accurate

drypelia

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

Wes Cohn

Re: Freud meets the Matrix?

I've been stomping the whole "monster from the ID" theory for some time now. This is right in line with it.

Wynter Zera

LOVE THIS THEORY

I love this theory, cause it goes in line with what I've been thinking of for awhile.

And, as an aside, I had a dream about the ending of Lost, and it was creepy, but the main idea was that it was SOME sort of conspiracy to "get rid of" or "treat" people which "don't fit in any other category." (Those were specifically the words used in my dream.) Now, I know psychologists are not always in the business of dream interpretation, but it seems to me that people with personality disorders would not fit neatly into any categories or "boxes" we "NORMAL" people set up. I.e., they don't behave the way we expect them to, or want them to.

This theory also fits well if we see Ethan as a "guide" who removed Claire - Charlie may not understand why, and so from his perspective the situation would seem menacing. (Didn't he show up at the most opertune moments, just when people were getting tired of boar, Ethan shows up with rabbits, or rodents, or whatever he said.) Weird.

Congrats Neill!!! I don't know if this is where the writers are going, but if they are, they should pay you!

JOSIE4

The Caves

Lost-tv Theories & Speculation