He that dies pays all debts.
The Tempest. Act iii. Sc. 2

Purgatory:

Not Quite Dead

The island as limbo

This is a very long post be warned ...


The following is a re-interpretation of the purgatory strand of thinking mostly in a comic book context though it is also, and inclined towards multi-world theory, dream/time and inter-dimensional travel in a spiritual context. Personally I'm a fan of genetic mutation/conflict/experimentation.


ROM space knight:

Comic books are referenced in the show and the idea that some of our castaways are special in some way, just as comic heroes are super, is also hinted at. I have already mentioned this in a previous post that ROM may have been referencing ROM space knight, a comic book hero, who's mission was to banish the evil Dire Wraiths back to LIMBO another dimension these entities inhabited.


After searching for LIMBO on the Internet I found some very interesting statements. Particularly in reference to LIMBO as seen by Marvel Comics. ROM from the comic is both a synonym for Rom being a robot and an acronym for the Roman Catholic Church, which first developed the idea of LIMBO as a means to solve certain conflicts of injustice in papal decree.


Catholic LIMBO:

Whereas LIMBO was a contested black sheep; Purgatory was its more moderate brother and was indoctrinated into church decree. LIMBO remained controversial and has not officially been accepted into Church doctrine.
In Catholic understanding there are two types of LIMBO.


The LIMBO of the fathers - where good men who are born before Christs teaching and hence his sacrificial redemption can go as an intermediary between heaven and hell.


The LIMBO of the Children - where unborn children who can't be baptised go rather then hell or heaven. Here it maybe a state of eternal happiness but removed from the divine touch of GOD.


Apart from the idea of being unable to determine their fate and that Father/mother and children issues are quite evident in the story arcs of the show, most of this is rather extraneous in relation to things and probably more allegorical in nature.


LIMBO means:


The noun limbo has 3 meanings:


Meaning #1: the state of being disregarded, lost or forgotten
Synonym: oblivion


Meaning #2: an imaginary place for lost or neglected things


Meaning #3: (theology) the abode of infants who die before baptism


The original root meaning of LIMBO is Limbus or 'boundary'. A space between doors, a gateway between worlds. It later came to be understood as 'a place where souls go.


Marvels take on LIMBO:

Heres what Wikipedia, free encyclopaedia had to say on LIMBO in comics.

Quote:


Limbo is a fictional dimension in the Marvel Comics universe whose physical laws are primarily magical, though laws of the ordinary universe (such as electromagnetism and gravity) normally apply within its bounds.


The name "Limbo" is a sobriquet. It is not the Catholic Limbo derived from Irish folklore, but a "pocket dimension", whose physical and temporal scope are extremely limited compared to the universe that ordinary human beings inhabit. It has an ecology composed primarily of demons of various sizes, strengths, and intellects. It is said that its ether is much thinner than that of the normal universe, allowing for a greater spectrum of magical powers and effects (see article).


Although Limbo has a linear history, time within it is not rigid. Many points in its past and future are connected through naturally occurring temporal rifts, and its present is relative to the individual. Its history can be changed by travel through these rifts, but for some reason this is rare.


Limbo is traditionally ruled by a supreme sorcerer, either a demonic native or an entity from another universe, often Earth's. Limbo's appearance and physical laws are highly variable, and determined by the power and personal taste of its ruler. It can take the form of an otherworldly paradise, or a rocky, sulfurous perdition.. (see article).


Limbo generally has a morally and spiritually corrupting influence over its denizens. If human, a resident of the realm will slowly metamorphose into a demonic entity. This change enhances the magical powers of the individual at the cost of their soul. Persons of great moral courage and wisdom can stave off the change for decades, but it is considered inevitable. The transformation usually progresses in stages initiated by the evil acts Limbo demands for survival. Magic in limbo is fundamentally neutral. It is the social and political climate that leads to this process.


The reality of Limbo is generated by a single deposit of a magical metal called Promethium. In Limbo it takes the form of a giant animal heart, hidden in a cavern deep below its surface. Removal of the promethium to another dimension will cause Limbo to vanish. The heart of Limbo was once sought by the supervillan Doctor Doom as an inexhaustible energy source for his nation of Latveria.
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The last phrases of this text are the most interesting and can easily be applied in a variant form to the narrative plot devices of LOST in which though people in some way find resolutions to their guilt, desire and fears, the island has a corrupting force which will ultimately lead them to another state that is at one with the nature of the island. People of great moral courage and wisdom might stave of this change for decades but its effect is inevitable.


Magical Earth:

One of the fundamental laws of receiving this 'power' was being in contact with the earth of that place, as the 'heart' of LIMBO was buried within tunnels beneath it's surface. Magic who was the girl ruler of LIMBO for a period was able to cleanse it several times by driving her 'soul' sword into the earth ridding it of it's corrupting force, but each and every time she did this she became more entwined with it's nature. She also had a magical mountain or rock that was the central nexus of power in LIMBO, a 'priori'.


Disease:

At one point an entity made of nano-technology known as the MAGUS was banished to LIMBO by Magic. He infected its denizens with his own natural techno-organic virus, which spread through out the dimension until Magic had to cleanse it once more with her soul sword. Magic had to call her other mutant friends from the x-men to aid her in doing this. The Magus however escaped though the virus kept spreading until it threatened to take over LIMBO.


A retelling of the nature of the comic book LIMBO to concur with the phenomenon of the island and a more scientific explanation could well be an answer to the 'theme' that the narrative of LOST and the island follows.


Parasite Dimensions:

LIMBO could also be seen as a parasite dimension or world that has no means to sustain itself so must leech of the materials of other 'real' worlds. Terry Pratchet in his Disk world series has a marvellous spin on how magic and science co-operated within a fantastical world, he also discusses parasite dimensions and how they operate with wonderful a plume. Here LIMBO could be seen as a place that existed in our dreams that lived of our collective and singular imaginings. It was peopled with characters and places from our literature and folklore though often this was the guise of demons that were the inhabitants of LIMBO though they took the form of our imaginings.


Greek mythology:

Another interesting take on LIMBO is seen in Greek mythology with the gates of Hades, which have been referenced, sometimes as LIMBO. The fields beyond these gates were the home of various horrors and other creatures of the after life such as - fear, anxiety, guilt, grief, hunger, agony and deathÉ. The path eventually leads to the elm where false dreams cling and then to judgement. To get beyond this LIMBO you would have to pass these creatures and not be compelled by their enamour. Souls could be stuck in limbo forever if they refused to let go of their lives demons.
In Greek mythology the MORAI were the three sisters of the one fate of all things.

Quote:
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"The threads which the Fates spin are so unchangeable, that, even if they decreed to someone a kingdom which at the moment belonged to another, and even if that other slew the man of destiny, to save himself from ever being deprived by him of his throne, nevertheless the dead man would come to life again in order to fulfil the decree of the Fates ... He who is destined to become a carpenter, will become one even if his hands have been cut off: and he who has been destined to carry off the prize for running in the Olympic games, will not fail to win even if he broke his leg: and a man to whom the Fates have decreed that he shall be an eminent archer, will not miss the mark, even though he lost his eyesight."

[Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 8.7]
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Destiny:

In the show Locke talks about his 'destiny' to do certain things. The idea of LIMBO here is that the people on the plane, or at least some of them, would have died prematurely in relation to their destiny. Maybe some weren't meant to be on the plane like a reverse final destination. The island is a LIMBO state in which the pre-ordained destiny's of these people can occur. Though their life span continues to their allotted demise each must participate in what destiny/fate has in store for them.


Hallucinogenic:

In many cultures LIMBO was a state that allowed men to have contact with those of the after life since it lay on the fringes of our world and the next. Spirits of the dead walked in purgatory until they could find peace. However men could enter this place sometimes through dream and hallucinatory induced states. ADLIVUM was a native American Inuit LIMBO. "It is a kind of limbo place where all Earthly issues are turned to ice and smoothed away." (Or, in the case of evil, hacked off and stamped on. Shamans could gain access to this domain by applying a hallucinogenic substance (similar to what Locke used with Boone).


Finally LIMBO is a dance game performed by leaning under an upraised horizontal stick to the sound of music. When Hurley organises a LIMBO contest I suspect this will probably be as far as this theory will ever get but you never know.


Jays tao


Re: The island as limbo


This post is long, too, so you are warned...


Jay -- I only read bits and pieces of what you wrote, because, frankly, I am drunk. However, it gave me reason to dig deeper into your limbo theory that you don't really believe but could prove because you're Jay, and honestly, you're pretty good with the theories and such.


So, I dug deeper into this whole limbo thingy, and look! I believe if we analyze the following songs, we will find further proof of the limboistic pseudo-scientifical intelligentia.


The following helps us understand where they are located. You may be suprised.


In Limbo by Radiohead


I'm the first in the Irish Sea
Another message I can't read
I'm on your side
Nowhere to hide
Trapdoors that open
I spiral down


You're living in a fantasy world
You're living in a fantasy world


I'm lost at sea
Don't bother me
I've lost my way
I've lost my way


You're living in a fantasy world
You're living in a fantasy world
You're living in a fantasy world


This beautiful world
I'm the first in the Irish Sea
Another message I can't read

The following helps us understand Locke and his destiny, tides, sefl-discovery, backgammon, flashbacks, dead birds, and sitting.


Limbo -Jimmy Cliff


Waiting for the tide turn.
Yeah, now, sitting here in Limbo,
So many things I've got to learn.
Meanwhile, they're putting up a resistance,
But I know that my faith will lead me on.


Sitting here in Limbo
Waiting for the dice to roll.
Yeah, now, sitting here in Limbo,
Still got some time to search my soul.


Meanwhile, they're putting up a resistance,
But I know that my faith will lead me on.
I don't know where life will take me,
But I know where I have been.
I don't know what life will show me,
But I know what I have seen.
Tried my hand at love and friendship,
That is past and gone.
And now it's time to move along.


Sitting here in Limbo
Like a bird ain't got a song.
Yeah, I'm sitting here in Limbo
And I know it won't be long.


'Til I make my getaway, now.
Meanwhile, they're putting up a resistance,
But I know that my faith will lead me on.
I don't know where life will take me,
But I know where I have been.
I don't know what life will show me,
But I know what I have seen.


Tried my hand at love and friendship,
That is past and gone.
And now it's time to move along.
Gonna lead me on now.
Meanwhile, they're putting up resistance,
But I know that my faith will lead me on.


Sitting in Limbo, Limbo, Limbo.
Sitting in Limbo, Limbo, Limbo.
Sitting in Limbo, Limbo, Limbo.
Meanwhile, they're putting up a resistance,
But I know that my faith will lead me on


And the following alludes to the lostaways, the Black Rock, Jack, watches, trees, being tested (how low can YOU go?), and ankolimboneee. Which is the name of the monster.


Limbo Song


Every limbo boy and girl
All around the limbo world
Gonna do the limbo rock
All around the limbo clock


Jack be limbo, Jack be quick
Jack go unda limbo stick
All around the limbo clock
Hey, let's do the limbo rock


Limbo lower now
Limbo lower now
How low can you go
First you spread your limbo feet
Then you move to limbo beat


Limbo ankolimboneee,
Bend back like a limbo tree
Jack be limbo, Jack be quick
Jack go unda limbo stick
All around the limbo clock
Hey, let's do the limbo rock


la la la etc (instead of instrumental break)


Get yourself a limbo girl
Give that chic a limbo whirl
There's a limbo moon above
You will fall in limbo love


Jack be limbo, Jack be quick
Jack go unda limbo stick
All around the limbo clock
Hey, let's do the limbo rock
Don't move that limbo bar


You'll be a limbo star
How low can you go


trinabobina


Re: The island as limbo


lol
"It doesn't always work out the way that we have planned
Did you really want to know the way that all the movies end"


Joe Purdy.


Jays tao

Re: The island as limbo


Ohhh ... I found an upcoming screen cap and sure enough
it does appear they are in the middle of Limbo !!

Cousin Eddie

Re: The island as limbo


Dear Ed.C


I was playing Duke Ellingtons Limbo jazz at the time and nearly p*ssed my self when your picture came up.

Cheers.

Interesting idea. Maybe they could have a limbo comp for the all the theories out there. The most limber theory will wins the prize?

Jays tao

Re: The island as limbo

You're a good sport and I like your theory.. I'm not so sure though, that we will ever find out what is really behind the island's mystery.


Cousin Eddie


Re: The island as limbo


Ed -- I bow to your mastery of photo shop


Jay -- the thoroughness of your first post is alarming, but a good read in the daylight. I appreciate how you look at it from so many angles. I also appreciate that you listen to jazz. I agree that the limbo theory isn't likely, but damn it sure could fit.


trinabobina


Re: The island as limbo


I agree with trinabobina Jay. And Eddie, keep the laughs coming; when I get time I will index them all because Lord knows, we need some humor around here!


Jay - I would like to know more about the Aboriginal dream stuff if you could add to that sadly neglected thread, as not only a legit Aussie but an extremely literate one!


drabauer


Re: The island as limbo


Jay,


You're a rebel as you have shown tremendous bravery posting a limbo thread that transcends and informs above and beyond all prior purgatory posts. For this act of bravery and your consistent intelligence, I am fabricating you a special shield that will hopefully protect you from any Boone Beatings that the word limbo may provoke by all (sometimes myself included) purgatory hating theorists out there. I will also start a coin collection fund to take you across the river if need be.


Keep em coming.


sawyerhasbestlines


Re: The island as limbo


ya know jay's tao, i have to say, you're analysis of this "purgatory" theory is pretty thorough. congrats, the purgatory fanatics should hire you to be their spokesperson.


kudos!


Mr Block of Cheese

LIMBO


Terrific post, thank you! I'd like to add this. Regarding this section mentioned:


"The LIMBO of the Children - where unborn children who can't be baptised go rather then hell or heaven. Here it maybe a state of eternal happiness but removed from the divine touch of GOD. "


Curious enough, this exact theory was spoken of in Nicole Kidman's movie...."THE OTHERS"!
Just a tidbit. Any thoughts?


Poppycup

Re: LIMBO


Jay~ great post


Poppycup~ I was reading that and i thought it sounded familiar...didn't the characters turn out to be dead in the Others? hm....

ClaireAndCharlie

Re: LIMBO


I'd just like to clear up a few things about what I was suggesting.


Theres no way that any of them are in the Catholic limbo it's far to restrictive and specific. Purgatory would be the other choice, but that has its own thread and relies mainly on the idea that the castaways are dead. I'm not suggesting that their dead. My main proposition was the marvel comics interpretation of Limbo. That Limbo was an actual place of sorts, a quasi dimension that gave you magical powers yet by the use of those powers eventually corrupted your soul (since the nature of Limbo was a corruption of reality). I was suggesting Limbo more as a 'template' to which the theme and narrative structure of lost can easily be applied but also as a possible explanation for the phenomena of lost.


That is:


Island is isolated by some force/agency and has become or is a place of limbo.


The strange nature of the island is manifested by some singular element the island has hidden within its cavernous depths.
Also a malignant entity (s) of sorts empowered by this element is trapped on the island.


The islands nature or something on the island endows sentient life forms with strange 'powers' but only if they give in to its corrupting nature. The more they use these gifts the more they are corrupted by this force.


The nature of the island, like limbo, can manifest peoples deepest desires and fears in a way that they must make a choice, one path of which leads them to further corruption with the islands nature.


(corrupting here does not necessarily mean evil just something that is alien, unnatural or inhuman in someway).


There is a supreme sorcerer/Magus/scientist on the island who has power over the nature of the island and can cleanse its corrupting force some how. This central nexus entity maybe missing or dead and the island/entity/force for some reason is trying to instate a new ruler. This ruler may need to be a 'child' of the island who is naturally at one with the islands properties.


There are other ways in which the idea of limbo can be applied but I got to go to work so....

Jays tao

Re: LIMBO


I still think that this theory fits really well. Especially due to there being an actual comic book in the show. Your definately onto something good here.

thoughtform

Re: LIMBO


Updating this thread with some new material. I've read some long posts on this board so just be warned....


Faustian mechanics.


The corrupting influence of Limbo in literature spurred from Ancient Greek lessons on morality. Virtue was an ends unto itself, to have virtue was to flourish. Because we are not perfect people however our virtues maybe imbalanced. We have vice in the form of to little or to much of certain virtues in relation to each other. The mechanics of this imbalance of virtue will thus lead to our eventual down fall unless we find our salvation which is the moderation of virtue; or the self discovery of balancing virtues (that pride is balanced by honour and humility). Thus happiness is found. Later in the demonic story of Faust by Goethe it is our original sin and the mechanics of a sinful world that create our eventual demise. No matter how good our intentions it is our own nature and the worlds that warps and distorts such to evil outcomes. Thus evil is the slow acceptance of this flawed nature. Faust was given over to fantastical temptations seemingly as a matter of moral luck, yet the dice of chance is weighted. The natural law of our world turns toward sin. Accordingly any gamble no matter how noble will eventually win in favour of hell. However this nature and mechanism of the world can be overcome by way of free will. Only by fighting this corrupting mechanism, through moderation and denial, can we find our salvation by choosing to deny the mechanics of this natural state. This was done primarily through the act of sacrifice, as no greater denial of self could be made. A last desperate 'choice' that redeems all as a worth unto itself so to speak. Goeth's take on Limbo and hell is also interesting. Here hell was depicted as a decent through various layers or circles. The first layer was limbo where good souls such as Plato and Socrates, as yet unsaved by the redemption of Christ resided. The last circle of hell was pandemonium or dis. This was a state of perfect chaos.


The Man - Thing.

The Man thing was a creation of marvel comics. It started as a small series that coincided with a DC series called Swamp thing. The character and stories were apparently unrelated and it was simply a matter of coincidence they were so similar. The history of the man thing is this. A scientist, Ted Sallis, has developed a serum that gives immunity to biological warfare but turns people into genetic horrors (Project Sulphur). This serum is later used as a foundation for redeveloping a government project that created super soldiers during WWII (Captain America). His wife betrays Sallis to a rogue organization called AIM causing Sallis to take the serum himself and have away with its secret into a mystical swamp. Becoming a monster of pure genetic chaos his humanity is slowly transformed by the bio-diverse mysticism of the swamp, turning him into an organic vegetable matter. At one with the mysticism of the swamp he is chosen as an avatar/protector of something called the Nexus of Realities. A trans dimensional focal point located at the swamps heart. The Man thing displayed minimum memory recall of his past life, though he had a vague curiosity of the unusual. His nature could pick up emanations from living creatures which it also projected often causing pandemonium, fear and hatred in those who did not understand its nature and would cause an equal fear/anger within its self that resulted often in violence and panic. It also sensed need and hunger which along with neutral parties, formed a curiosity and such oddities would be watched from a distance. The Man thing was virtually indestructible and could regenerate almost any harm. It exuded when angry, a sulphuric acid that broke down living compounds. Looking into the man things 'eye' has been described as looking into 'perfect Chaos/beauty'. It could also engulf living organisms into its being where lay the 'rotting purgatory' of the swamp, a genetic limbo of pure primordial Chaos that all life spurs.


Dr Strange and the outer planes of Chaos.


Dr Strange was a neurosurgeon who, having lost his skill in an accident, turned sorcerer supreme after learning of the battle of good and evil in a mystic temple located in Tibet. He gained much of his power from a magical relic known as the eye of Agamento given to him by his former master, the Ancient One. He kept this eye beneath a patch and it was often depicted as the dark balance to his other remaining human eye. The forces of light and dark, black and white, were not necessarily entirely evil nor entirely good but two sides of the same mystic force interconnected. Strange used the power of an ancient Babylonian tome called the book of Vishanti to gain knowledge over the arcane world. He used this knowledge to defeat invading powers of the other worlds beyond. Examples of which were Drumamu a being of the dark dimension or the Omegatron an ultimate computer that threatened the earth. There came a time when the mind of his old master was used as a doorway into the earthly realms by a demon spawned of pure chaos, Shuma-Gorath. The ancient one sacrificed himself that Shuma-Gorath be trapped within his ego. Allowing Strange to use the powers of black and white to battle the demon in the utmost reaches of minds Chaos. Here Shuma-Gorath appeared as a great mountainous eye that Strange battled to victory.


Hell Blazer: The I-ching, varying states of limbo, the everything disease and the Synchronicity high way.


Hell Blazer was a comic that orientated around the adventures of a occult con artist, John Constantine (of said movie recently released). The theme of the comic was situated in the mystical/demonic circles that was Constantine's 'trick'. Constantine, a smart tongued charlatan with a certain panache came from working class London. His origin derived from his former newbie days as an occultist who had unintentionally condemed a child to a sort of children's limbo/hell by his own arrogance. This act would forever torment him, driving him insane and sending him to a mental hospital where he gained a stamina of sorts for the evil of men. This shadowy back ground was the starting point for a careeer that would lead him to con the 'three' great evils of hell to cure his chain smoking induced Cancer. This included such notables as the devil whom had a particular vendetta against him. Appearing in a coma induced dream where Constantine had to make amendments with his hell condemned father in order to release himself. Another tale is how he cooperated with the spirit of king Arthur to defeat the rogue spirit of Merlin who wished to punish mankind by retrieving a sort of 'pandora's' box which was in fact a trap set by a jealous God in order to kill all fei kind.


Through various means constantine eventually saved the child he had condemned but in order to do so he sacrificed the evil within himself. Things at first were fine until he discovered that he had become distanced from reality, unable to find definition for himself, and no longer able to make clear choices. His soul, with no oppositional dark side, was in a state of self induced limbo. The narrative of the comic metaphorically described this state in a parable of good and evil. Here two brothers, Good and Evil battled each other in the garden of eternity. However Good eventually defeats evil and once he is congradulated by other personifications he no longer knows what to do and simply watches in lonely silence his evil brother decay. It is the realisation that evil is simply two sides of the same coin. A dualistic neccestity of ones moral existence. Constantines no longer had a random element and when ever he tost a coin to decide his fate it came up 'good'. Constantine turned to a Chinese occultist friend who, though not believing his story, used the mystical I-ching to discover his path using the symbolic elements of Chinese mysticism. Air (thunder and the nature of himself), Earth (roots and the nature of evil), the mountain (where he and his evil other self meet to find balance) and fire (the answer to his conundrum). Successful and once again flushed with evil Constantine is once again able to be his all to human self.


Later he encounters the ghost of Sir Francis Dashwood (an historic occult hedonist) who explains that the nature of everything is unravelling due to a mysterious social corruption leading to universal anarchy. The disease causes improbable occurrences to happen, such as urban legends and improbability that would eventually corrupt the very fabric of normality. In a previous issue this is described in the psychic pattern/occurrences of disasters through out the world. Where all disaster victim's share a kind of empathetic re-enactment of the same disaster happening in various forms. Dashwood's answer is to incant a globe circling spell which will fix the corrupting affliction in the possible/probable 'matrix' of reality. This is later described as the everything virus by the church of 'virtual reality' who kidnap Constantine and who suggest the answer lies in the rain forests where possible cures can be found for the worlds ills. Though sceptical this eventually leads Constantine to Australia where he defeats the Rainbow Serpent and parlays for the continuation of his journey. The story arc ends with Constantine travelling to Papa New Guinea and trapping Dashwood in a tree for a course as it seems he was responsible for the 'corruption/insanity' by way of his own spiritually enhanced deluded ego.


Constantine's main mode of mystic travel was to use the synchronicity high way. Where by placing ones body/ego at the centre of random fluctuations in chaos probabilities triggers unlikely yet beneficial occurrences and outcomes. Douglas Adam's Dirk Gently used this Method in his Holistic detective agency in order be where he 'needed' to be rather then where he wanted to be. Constantine often had a chosen destination, this could be the answer to a conundrum or simply a place separated by time and space, the path to attain this destination however was often inexplicably related to chance occurrence. Like throwing a coin in the air and seeing where it lands to decide your coarse of action.

Jays tao